UPS switching to dimensional weight on all Ground packages

[jguengerich]

I just noticed this on the UPS web site:
http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resour ... eight.html
Just above the first image, it says:
"Effective December 29, 2014, dimensional weight will be used to calculate the billable weight of all UPS Ground packages."
I looked in their "Rating Package - XML Developers Guide" dated July 7, 2014, and the Length, Width, and Height fields are all listed as "Required if Packaging Type in not Letter, Express Tube, or Express Box;...". The web page I quoted says "all UPS Ground packages", but the XML Developers Guide is for all the Air and 3-Day shipping methods too, and there is only one table describing the XML fields.
I am still getting rates returned, even though AbleCommerce is just submitting the wieight, but I'm wondering if that will change in December. Has anyone done any research on this? Could someone from AbleCommerce contact UPS and get some clarification? This seems to indicate that the only way to get accurate shipping quotes will be to know the dimensions of the box you are going to ship the product(s) in. We don't know this when the order is placed, and I'm sure the same is true for many other businesses.

[abradley]

Jay this is a good catch. This would add a huge amount of hassle for our business as well. The actual shipment dimensions depend on what COMBINATION of products are in the shipment, I dont see a way to calculate shipment dimensions without anomalies. We could get a rough estimate by having product dimensions, then the system could figure out that the shipment length, for example, would have to be AT LEAST the same size as the longest product. Obviously this would not be perfect and the system could not accurately calculate dimensions in all cases. For example, what about very irregular shape items.

[Katie]

I've opened up a bug report with the developers so they can look into this further. I'm not real happy about the change either...

It's impossible to calculate the dimensions of a box that has multiple products inside. There are too many variables - like how you would arrange them in the box and how much room is needed for packaging material. We've looked into it before and it simply became way to complex.

I think what we'll have to do is use each product's dimensions to calculate the dimensional weight, and then add them all up when there are multiple items in the same shipment.

[jguengerich]

Katie,
If UPS is really going to require dimensions to return a rate quote, I think they are going to get a lot of pushback from a lot of developers. However, maybe they will still return quotes (estimates) based on just the weight, but when it comes time to actually charge you they will use the dimensional weight. I haven't talked to them, so I don't know. I have more questions than answers. The reason I requested AbleCommerce look into it is you are the ones that will have to take care of any coding changes to the UPS module. I don't envy your developers if they have to come up with some dimensional scheme just to get rate quotes.

[jguengerich]

FYI Here is their press release:
http://www.ups.com/pressroom/us/press_r ... yndication

[jguengerich]

FedEx is doing the same thing:
http://news.van.fedex.com/fedex-announc ... ng-changes

[jguengerich]

After a little more research, apparently both FedEx and UPS are already using dimensional weight when charging for all air shipments. Since we are currently able to get quotes with only weight for air shipments, hopefully they will continue to provide quotes with only weight for ground shipments too, adjusting their quote up since many packages will cost more to ship. Hopefully AbleCommerce can get some clarification directly from UPS.

[rmaweb]

This sounds like they are going a similar route as the USPS, where they charge a flat rate based off box size as opposed to box weight?

[jguengerich]

The difference is that you can still use any size box, while with USPS you have to buy one of their boxes. Plus, UPS and FedEx will still factor distance shipped into their rates.

[abradley]

^^ And of course they will still factor in weight.

[jguengerich]

abradley,
No, dimensional weight will be based on the dimensions. Weight wil not be considered.

[compunerdy]

abradley,
No, dimensional weight will be based on the dimensions. Weight wil not be considered.

Dimensional weight pricing is a common method to determine prices in the transportation industry. It takes into account exterior package size, which is the amount of space a package occupies when in the cargo area of the transport vehicle, in relation to its actual weight to determine the appropriate price. The dimensional weight calculation will apply if it is greater than the actual weight.

[jguengerich]

I guess maybe you're right. UPS says:

UPS Ground shipments in U.S.: If the cubic size of the package in inches is 5,184 or larger, divide the cubic size by 166 to determine dimensional weight in pounds. If the cubic size in inches is less than 5,184, use the actual weight of the package. Increase any fraction to the next whole pound.
Effective December 29, 2014, dimensional weight will be used to calculate the billable weight of all UPS Ground packages.

I was thinking that meant starting December 29, it wouldn't matter what the actual weight is, the billable weight would be the dimensional weight. However, I guess maybe they mean that they will always consider the dimensional weight no matter what the cubic size is, and still compare it to the actual weight to determine the billable weight. I said I had more questions than answers, and it looks like even one of my answers was incorrect .

[abradley]

abradley,
No, dimensional weight will be based on the dimensions. Weight wil not be considered.

Dimensional weight pricing is a common method to determine prices in the transportation industry. It takes into account exterior package size, which is the amount of space a package occupies when in the cargo area of the transport vehicle, in relation to its actual weight to determine the appropriate price. The dimensional weight calculation will apply if it is greater than the actual weight.

I should have been more clear. Tim is right, weight does still matter.

This is how it works now for air packages. We have also observed that dimensional weight applies only if it is GREATER than the package's actual weight.

[compunerdy]

Basically they do not want us shipping like Amazon does with a 3x3x3 box inside a 14x10x12 box

[jmestep]

Yes, then we need to have Able add code to factor in the price of each cardboard box and then figure out if it would cost more to use a smaller box if the smaller box costs more than a standard size big box and then calculate whether it would be cheaper to use bubble pack, brown paper, peanuts or inflated plastic for each box and do this for each currency in the site and both metric and dollars.
BTW- peanuts work best because you can fill someones desk drawers up with them while the person is on vacation.

[jguengerich]

Judy,

We'll all just have to get one of these machines to make the exact size box needed for each order .
http://www.packsize.com/

[Katie]

I am going to try and contact UPS to ask them some questions. Before doing so, I'd like to go over some options that we've been discussing internally -

Currently, AbleCommerce will send available product dimensions in two cases:

1) When the Shippable setting is set to "Calculate separately"
2) When the product is the only item in the shipment.

If there happens to be multiple items with dimensions in the shipment, then we only send the total weight.

Now, if UPS and FedEx are going to start requiring dimensional weight, then I was going to propose the following:

A) We add 2 fields to the product editing page. They will be the resulting dimensional calculation for domestic and international shipments. So, if a merchant enters the product dimensions, then the dimensional weight will be automatically calculated. This serves two purposes: to make the merchant aware of the difference between actual weight and dimensional weight, and to give AC an easy way to compare the two weights during a rate quote request by taking the larger number.

B) The information above would be triggered by a checkbox on the shipping methods page. It would be something like 'Use dimensional weight or whichever is higher'. That way, we can easily control which shipping methods are going to need this special calculation.

This brings up a question though:

Will the gateway integration REQUIRE dimensions be sent for each shipment, or can we send the calculated weight for the shipment (dimensional or otherwise) as the total weight and get a rate quote from that?

There is one more option for AbleCommerce, but I'm hesitant to do it.

C) We could make the setting 'Calculate Separately' a requirement for all items that have dimensions. This would mean the least amount of code changes. However, I have often found that changing an existing feature will have unexpected results. We can never be certain how a merchant is using a feature, so to change it's function may not be the best approach. Plus, the dimensional weight requirement is only being proposed for certain types of shipping methods, so that is another reason why this option could cause some problems.

Please comment, and if you have any specific questions that you would like me to ask UPS, post them here.

Thanks,
Katie

[jguengerich]

Katie,

Will the gateway integration REQUIRE dimensions be sent for each shipment, or can we send the calculated weight for the shipment (dimensional or otherwise) as the total weight and get a rate quote from that?

That was the first/main question I was interested in, because the answer to that will determine whether existing installations of AbleCommerce will continue to work. If the answer is "Yes", then you might ask them if they have any guidelines / suggestions / code samples of how to handle getting a quote for shipping multiple items with different sizes in one or more boxes, especially if the box size(s) isn't(aren't) known ahead of time.

[compunerdy]

I know for us we only use a few box sizes when it comes to UPS. This is how I would want to use it.

We already have the weight for the products (we cant add the weight of the box because AC never added that feature) so what we need to know is the size of the box the products will be shipped in. Just calculating the dimensional size of each product and adding them together will not be accurate because you always have dead space in a box. I think we need to be able to setup boxes based off the dimensions of products or at least some of them. Most of our items are small but we also sell 40" long tubes. So for example..

If length of longest item => 40" then use box size 4x4x42 for dimensional weight calculation.

Could even go more into it..

If length of longest item is => 40" and width of largest item is =< 3.5" then use box size 4x4x42 for dimensional weight calculation.

If length of longest item is => 40" and width of largest item is => 3.5" then use box size 6x6x42 for dimensional weight calculation.

If length of longest item is <= 12" and width of widest item is <= 6" and height of tallest item is <=6" and the total dimensional size of all products is <= 432 cubic inches then use box size 12x6x6



Not sure if something like this would work but maybe a mix of the different ideas will help cover everyone.

[Katie]

I think we need to be able to setup boxes based off the dimensions of products or at least some of them

I think it would be VERY difficult to determine how multiple items in a shipment would be arranged in a box. You would have to account for packing space and that would vary depending on what you decided to use for the material. You would have to look at all the different box sizes, determine the maximum weight that could go into a box, and then be able decide how irregular items would be shipped. I'm sure this would be a crazy complicated feature to try and figure out...and I have to wonder if any other ecommerce systems have something like this already in place? It would be interesting to see how they handle it.

[abradley]

Katie,

We could make the setting 'Calculate Separately' a requirement for all items that have dimensions. This would mean the least amount of code changes. However, I have often found that changing an existing feature will have unexpected results. We can never be certain how a merchant is using a feature, so to change it's function may not be the best approach. Plus, the dimensional weight requirement is only being proposed for certain types of shipping methods, so that is another reason why this option could cause some problems.

I agree, we already have a workflow with the current "calculate separately," so I would prefer if we added a feature instead of changed this current one.

Will the gateway integration REQUIRE dimensions be sent for each shipment, or can we send the calculated weight for the shipment (dimensional or otherwise) as the total weight and get a rate quote from that?

I think the easiest way to handle it if they REQUIRE a dimension is to have a "default dimension" setting for the store or even on the warehouse level. Then if the product doesn't have a dimension set, we get a rate quote with the default dimension and the actual weight. I understand this isn't perfect, but this default setting could be in addition to whatever scheme is decided upon here. We can always manipulate weights and handling charges to make sure we do not lose money on shipping.

[calvis]

I think we need 2 additional things:

1) A new field for each product called area. You could pad this to take in account of wrapping if needed.

2) A new section in warehouse called packaging. This is where we would input our stock boxes which would include the box size and weight.

When a customer places an order a 'best fit calculation' using the area would take place finding the most optimal box for the order. The shipping company (FedEx or UPS) would retrieve rates based on the weight and size of optimal box.

I would have the optimal box printed on the packaging list to make it easy for the packers. Also be able to exclude the product from optimal packing if needed.

This is the way I would approach it for our business which only includes about 7 different kinds of boxes.

[compunerdy]

I think Calvis and I are on the same page and I am sure there are a lot of other companies along the same lines. The only issue with only calculating area though is you need to account for at least the longest, widest, tallest piece in the shipment for the minimum box size. Of course this will not work for every shop out there but I think it would work for most. I am not sure why this would be considered very difficult to calculate? No reason AC cannot be a pioneer in calculating package sizes..

[Katie]

I understand the need to have a feature like this, but we are getting off track. We need to have a working solution by the time our next version comes out this Fall, and we'll also be required to provide hot patches for earlier versions. That said, we need to take care of the dimensional requirement only...for now at least. With more discussion, we can look at a "box feature" to make shipments as accurate as possible.