How is shipping caluclated for multiple items?

[Jaz]

I have been searching to find this answer, but can’t find it.

All I want to know is how Able calculates box size for multiple items.

For example, I have an order with one item that is 2” x 2” x 60” long, and another item with the sixe of 18” x 18” x 2”. Obviously this will be shipped in 2 boxes. I am not using the ship separately options because either of these items can be shipped with many smaller items that I sell and in most cases either of these items will be shipped with other items in one box.

I am willing to accept that my shipping will not be accurate in situations of these 2 items in one order, but I would like to know how able calculates this to come up with a box size, so I can adjust my dimensions appropriately.

Lets take a simpler example:

I have 4 items that are 6”x6”x6”. This could be calculated in several ways.

It could be 6x6x24 tall, or it could calculate 12 x 12 x 6 tall, or it could calculate a volume of 864 cubic inches and figure a square box of 10 x 10 x 10

Obviously, none of these will work well for my example of the 2 odd shaped items, but if I know the calculation method, I can better compensate of it.

Worst case, I can just accept that calculations are wrong and set shipping so that I make some on some orders, and loose some on some orders, but I would like to avoid this as much as possible, because customers don’t like to pay for others shipping.

Thanks,

[kastnerd]

If you only ship by ground, You could calculate the dim weight of the box and put that as the weight.

I don't know if Able can do 2 packages, like if they order 2 of the one item and 1 of the other, it should be 3 boxes.

If you ship by ground and air, The dim weight would be different depending on the shipping method.

[Logan Rhodehamel]

All I want to know is how Able calculates box size for multiple items.

We do not attempt to calculate box size. If you are not using the ship separately option, we only pass in the total weights. The shippers will assume standard box sizes (i.e. not oversize).

[kastnerd]

I have tired the "ship separately". And if someone orders 2 of the same item i did not see it calculating it as 2 boxes. nor did it look like it passed the product dimensions.

[Jaz]

OK, I think this is something that needs to be addressed more.

If I have a customer that orders an item that is 6 ft long, it will be charged as over sizes. Now, if they order 2 items that are 6 ft long that will both fit in the same box, they are actually charged less, because dimensional weight is no longer taken into account. So for a simple solution, that will solve about 80% of the problems, could able add the weights of the items, and use the dimension of the largest item, or the one with the largest dimensional weight. Obviously I can’t use ship separate for 10 pieces of 6ft tubing.

This will also solve the most common situations I have. This is when one over sized item is purchased and all the other items will fit in the oversized box. Usually it is one item that determines what box is used.

If anyone is interested, I would be willing to work on a formula that can calculate dimensions of multiple items. Maybe I could come up with a couple formulas and users could chose a radio button of the one that works best for their store. I know no formula will work for everything, but I think I can get something that will work for most situations and eliminate most of the problems.

[Jaz]

I was doing some more thinking about how do make shipping work for most situations.

It seems to be that there are a few issues.

- As orders get increasing heavy, there is no way to tell the system to split the orders.
- There is no dimensional calculation for multiple items
- There is no way to account for some items not being able to be shipped with other items.

My Proposal

I think all these problem can be solved with a concept I cam up with called “box codes”

Essentially you set up a code for each box you ship with. You do not have to assign a code to all your boxes, just ones that need special attention.

First you would assign a name, dimension and maximum weight to the box (Optional)

Ex: - Box 1 – basic Box 4x4x4 10 lb
- Box 2 – Large 12x12x12 40 lb
- Box 3 – Medium Box 4x4x42 20lb
- Box 4 – Long Box 4x4x60 40 lb
- Box 5 – Flat Box 20x20x4 40 lb

Next you would have what I am calling an “upsize”

You would Classify which boxes could be combine

Upsize
- Box 1 – basic Box 4x4x4 10 lb 2,3,4,5,
- Box 2 – Large 12x12x12 40 lb
- Box 3 – Medium Box 4x4x42 20lb 4
- Box 4 – Long Box 4x4x60 40 lb
- Box 5 – Flat Box 20x20x4 40 lb

If you have a product that needs a box #1 and a product that needs box#5, you drop the box #1 and ship it all in the box #5. More is described below.


Next you need to assign the shipping information for each product

Assigning a weigh would not change.

Assigning a dimension would not change (not that this does much now because it is ignored after a second item is added to the cart)

Next you have the option to assign a box code to the product. This would override any entered dimensions.

You then list how many of this product that can fit into the box.

Ex. – 5 ft flag pole

Box Code 5

Quantity per box – 4

You can choose ship separately and have to 4 of this item assigned to this box and all other items would ship separately. This assumes that the weight assigned before has not been exceeded.

If you have more than 4 of this item, or you exceed the weigh, your shipment will be assigned to 2 #4 boxes

Any additional items would be assigned to another box based on their box code, or no box code (weigh only) is no code is assigned.

It may also be nice to have a site wide variable for maximum weigh for any one shipment.

Given the previous example with the same situation but the ship separate button is not checked:

Everything would ship the same, but the 3dr box would be combine with box 1 until the max weight is met, then applied to box 2 until the max weight is met and then only shipped separately if the weigh of the 2 previous box is exceeded.

Combining Box codes

If you have 2 items in the cart with the same box code:

Quantity 3 - Flag Pole – #4 box - 4 per box
Quantity 1 - Large Flag Pole - #4 box – 2 per box


Quantity for the first box reverts to the lower number per box for the box type. The first box gets one large flag pole and one regular flag pole and the other box gets 2 regular flag poles.

If you have an item in your cart that is assigned to box 1 and one assigned to box 5, the box #1 would be assigned to box 5 because of the upsize classification with only a weight increase.

There are some limitations, but I think it is defined enough that vendors can make adjustments to let it work for them.



There are some thins that it will not do, but I was trying to not over complicate it.

What is does not do:

Let you chose available boxes for different shipping service (This would cause the problem that some items would not be available with certain shipping services.) I did not see this to be that important. If someone ha san idea on this, let me know.

Will not take into account product dimensions for multiple items that not assigned a Box Code

This is kind of a rough initial thought. Feel free to revisit this and play with my idea. I am sure it needs some clarification and revision. I will gladly clarify any points.

[kastnerd]

I think it could be a little easier.

UPS and FedEX dont really need the length and width and height to be "True" meaning they go by total dim.
A Box 12x12x12 is 1728 cubic inches. 9lbs min for air.
A box 10x10x17 is 1700 cubic inches. 9lbs min for air.

So basicly if you calculate the cubic inches for the product. Then have a box that fits in. Then send the boxes cubic inches to UPS.
So if you have product that is 200 cubic inches, they could order 10 of them and they still fit in a box that can hold 2,000 cubic inches.

Calculate the box and weight separately.

For ground shipping large boxes UPS needs the box size. For air shipping it should have the box size for all orders.

[Jaz]

This will work for some, but I have a lot of items that are very long or large and flat. The volume is small, but the length , or length x width quickly makes it oversized.

[kastnerd]

On my current oscommerce site i use this code. It can calculate box sizes quite well.

Read this attachment.

Also see http://addons dot oscommerce dot com/info/1323

[Jaz]

Nothing wil calculate perfectly. I think we are just looking to get closer actual. I would lovet to see something like your example used.

Even if we could just set a maximum weight per box and chose the largest item for the box dimention, it would be a good start. I know a lot of people ship stuff that dimentions do not matter, but I would like to know AC's interest in working on this so we know how much to help them develop it.

[kastnerd]

Jaz you sell basically long pipes.
What is the detentions on a single pipe?
What is the smallest box you have that fits that?
How many pipes fit in this smallest box?
How many pipes do most customers order?

[Logan Rhodehamel]

but I would like to know AC's interest in working on this

For me, packaging theory is probably the single most interesting thing about ecommerce right now. If I could unilaterally choose what to spend my time on this would be it. But this would be a major feature enhancement, which means it has to be planned and discussed.

I created an enhancement request (bug 7540) with a reference to this forum. All I can promise is that it will be considered as an area for improvement.

[Jaz]

I sell theatrical props. This includes staves that are spun by fire performers. There have to go in long boxes. I also sell fire fans. These have to go in large flat boxes. I can fit several of each in a box, but I can't fit them in a box together. I am ok with these situations, but my big problem is that AC drops the dimension calculations when a second item is added to the cart. In other words, it is cheaper to ship 2 of an item than one of an item. This is my understanding anyhow. Just solving this issue would be a huge help. I do not want to over complicate this issue.

[kastnerd]

I will need this fixed before my site can go live. I sell light weight wheels. They are large, but lighter then the box sometimes.
I have a coder working on it, but its not working yet.

[Logan Rhodehamel]

I will need this fixed before my site can go live. I sell light weight wheels. They are large, but lighter then the box sometimes.
I have a coder working on it, but its not working yet.

In the past, we have had merchants determine the weight that the carrier (e.g. UPS) would charge the item at and enter that for the weight of the item. So if it's a large item that weights 1lb, UPS might charge you based on a 10lb item because of the package size. The problem point is when you can pack multiple light items into the same box.

[Jaz]

That's the problem. I can pack lots of a similar item, but not multiple different items. Even more confusing is most items can be packed in any box. It is just the select ones that are problems.

[kastnerd]

I am trying to find a way to accomplish correct shipping quote for one of my products.
1 Wheelset
Shipping from Zip 14814 to 90210 Using Published UPS Rates

Ground shipping $14.98
2 boxes at 8lbs total. (23x23x5 and 23x23x6)

If i quote ground as 1 box at 8lbs its $9.15 with no sizes entered. (but the box would be to big so i would have to enter the size)
If i enter in 23x23x12 as if i used 1 larger box.
Its $28.77

2nd Day air $118.48 1 box at 23x23x12
If i ship it as 2 boxes its $131.78
If i ship 2nd Day at 2 boxes 8lbs with out entering a dim its. $53.48
If shipped 2nd day 1 box 8lbs with out entering in dim its $38.93
$118 is the best correct price. But with out dim that is $38.93


So for ground its best not to hit the over size of 5,184 cubic inches or they start charging dim
For air its doing to be charged dim for both small box or big box, so its cheaper to do one big box.

[kastnerd]

I will need this fixed before my site can go live. I sell light weight wheels. They are large, but lighter then the box sometimes.
I have a coder working on it, but its not working yet.

In the past, we have had merchants determine the weight that the carrier (e.g. UPS) would charge the item at and enter that for the weight of the item. So if it's a large item that weights 1lb, UPS might charge you based on a 10lb item because of the package size. The problem point is when you can pack multiple light items into the same box.

The problem is that effects ground shipping and air shipping. If ground you get charged for 4lbs. If 2nd day air you get charged 14lbs.
So having it set at 14lbs would make ground shipping crazy high.

http://fedex.com/cgi-bin/crg_dim_weight.cgi

[kastnerd]

That's the problem. I can pack lots of a similar item, but not multiple different items. Even more confusing is most items can be packed in any box. It is just the select ones that are problems.

What if each product had a list of all your boxes with check boxes. Have the program calculate size so that the product fits. But also have manual control saying "This product can only ship in these 2 boxes" But your other small items be marked to be shipping in all boxes. Then other products be marked "Only ships in these other 2 boxes"

I have about 20 box sizes so that should no be to crazy.

[Jaz]

We would have to look at the formula that would be used to calculate everything to make sure that it all works. Most boxes, at least for me are not over sized and would not even have to be put into the system. I am considering just making a calculator with rates that I put in to solve this problem. Some will be over chareged and other will be under charged. It will all even out and it will be easy. Anyways, it seems like the calculator for the UPS and USPS are not working half the time. I don't know if there are comunication problem or what. I am tired of customers calling and telling me that there are not any shipping methods availiable.

[kastnerd]

I can pack most things so they are not over sized for ground. But for air shipments size is always a factor. 2nd day and next day.
Also USPS has different sizes before they charge for size then UPS.

The biggest thing for me is if someone orders 2 of some items it needs to double the amount of boxes. But not for other items.

[kastnerd]

If there was a list of every box you have in the database. You can make some products as "Can use any of these boxes"
Then some products you can make as "only fits in this one box" If you can fit multiple of that item in that box, then it should use the product dimensions and the box dimensions to calculate how many fit in that box.

If your box is 2000 cubic inches, and the product is marked to fit in this box. And you set the product to 500 cubic inches, you could fit 4 of that item in this box or 2 of them and a bunch of other items.

If someone orders 6, it should be in 2 boxes of the same size.

For me, my wheels take up about 90% of the space in the box. So i would select that it only fits in that box, but there is a little room if they order small items that the calculator dose not need to add another box. But if they order 2, It would be 2 boxes.

A normal order for me has 5 items and 1 to 3 boxes.

But 2nd day air shipments can be off as much as $90 on a single item if not using the dimensions correctly.

[kastnerd]

On my current oscommerce site i use this code. It can calculate box sizes quite well.

Read this attachment.

Also see http://addons dot oscommerce dot com/info/1323

This code works ok for php.
Has anyone seen codes that work for other sites? If we find how these codes do there job we can duplicate it.